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Posted by letcredit (Thursday, September 14, 2006)
LIST OF NONSENSICAL BROKERS TERMS
Below is a list of bogus terms culled from various websites of fraud polic around the world. They don't exist in the real banking world. There are many others, I only selected those that appear most frequently in the internet.

Bank Hard Copy
Bank Invoice
Bank/Corporate Pay Order
Banking Co-ordinates
Blocked Funds Letters
CIF ASWP
Clean, Cleared Funds of Non-Criminal Origin Conditional Swift/Wire
Cutting House
Exit Buyer
Fed approved
For value received, we, the undersigned officers of ….. Fresh Cut
ICC 3034/3039 Format
ICC 600
ICC NCND
Instruments free of liens and encumbrances International Banking Hours/Days
Irrevocable, Confirmable, Assignable, Divisible, Transferable KTT
London Short Form
Master Cutter/Trader
One Year and One Day
Prime Bank
Prime Bank Debentures, Guarantees or Notes Proof of Funds Letters
Roll Program
Rolls and Extensions
RWA Ready Willing and Able
Seasoned
Soft Probe
Subject to the laws of U.S.A., Switzerland, England and etc. Tier 1 Banks
Under Penalty of Perjury
Window Time

Replies start here:
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09-25-06  letcredit: There is no such thing as a "assignable" and "divisible" LC. It's all broker talk.

Article 48(b) of ICC-UCP 500 states: "A Credit can be transferred only if it is expressly designated as "transferable" by the issuing Bank. Terms such as "divisible", "fractionable", "assignable" and "transmissible" do not render the Credit transferable. If such terms are used they shall be disregarded."

"Assignment of Proceeds" is commonly confused with transfer of the LC proper.


09-24-06  sapphirecapital: actually US Banks issue revolving letters of credit for specific faclities holding a long term credit arrangement, they usually issue for international businesses outside the US but since these facilities are mostly over the credit allowance of branches they carry a credit confirmation clause from the main branch department. Letetrs of credits still have the possibility to carry a transferrability clause but its usually only transferrable once and mostly the transfer needs to be okayed by the issueing bank and registered. There is a clause" transferrable more than once without restriction" which is usually only used for high volume issuer demanding it but mostly carries a registration need for each and every transfer. There is however no such problem with an assignement of proceeds of a letter of credit, it is done all the time and allowed even from a non-transferrable letter of credit, does not need any clause on the lc either. A documentary letter of credit for sure can have an irrvocable assignement of the proceds when the documents are lodged and confirmed in order so the deferred payment like say a 90 days or even a 360 days can be bridged. Beside an injunction for fraud such an assignement is irrevocable. There are large financial markets using this every day.

09-24-06  Educator: YFOS. Yes, it was issued directly to me/my corporation. It was issued by one of the banks that i regularly did business with. It took me 2 weeks to get it, the bank examiner had to go over my balance sheets, etc. Once I had the LC, I was able to command a better selling price for the corp. I then sold in 1999 & retired from the business in early 2000 & subsequently got involved in this business. Any other questions?

09-24-06  yourfullofshit1: Educator: Did that revolving LC come from a USA bank to you? Let me re-phrase what I said. USA banks do not use them as much as they once did, maybe because it was the same USA banks that started issusing SBLC. My sources in banking tell me it is rarely or never used. Maybe you can expand on this Educator.

09-24-06  Educator: YFOS....I did receive a revolving letter of credit from one of my banks in the US in 1997 or 1998 in the amount of 5M. The LC was assignable and divisible. This was when I owned a Manufacturing/Engineering company, I could draw against it at any time. I have not checked in the last several years as I have no need, however they probably still do issue them.

09-24-06  yourfullofshit1: I don't think any USA bank will issue a revolving letter of credit, not in the last 15 years. On the other hand, transferrable letter of credit is still frequently used, but rarely issued by any Chinese bank.

09-24-06  MoneyBroker123: It's been over a decade since I conducted a commercial transaction where a standby letter of credit was used. The term "transferrable letter of credit" was used then. Are you telling me this term and process is no longer available in the banking system? How about "revolving letter of credit"...has it also been deleted off the system?

09-24-06  devises: I support Letcredit about the CIF AWSP nonsense . There is no such term in export business. I was working for 5 y with a real supplier of oil , and not a small one , how can you explain that he doesn t know what AWSP stands for ? same for LC "transferable" , there s no such procedure , only LC usance for new customer , for the 1 st order at least . rgrds
JG

09-23-06  sapphirecapital: Natalie: Prime Bank means a prime bank. what prime means is what you define it, prime may mean " the best" but according to whom is open. You could say the top G7 money center or the big banks in Western Europe and US and Canada, or all AAA rated banks by S&P, all kind of definitins are posible. Thats why it is said prime bank does not make much sense as a professional term. Anyone who offers something like an instrument from a prme bank should be avoided, the proper definitions are different and you get them from the people who know what they are talking about.

09-23-06  NatalieUSA: Hi people, I just saw an ad in this forum by HypoTrade. He mentions prime bank which is listed here as a non sense broker term. What do people mean by prime bank? Can some answer please.

09-19-06  Hardcase1: Nonsensical: from the word nonsense

1 a : words or language having no meaning or conveying no intelligible ideas b (1) : language, conduct, or an idea that is absurd or contrary to good sense (2) : an instance of absurd action 2 a : things of no importance or value : TRIFLES b : affected or impudent conduct.

While many of these terms and terminologies may be misused how are they bogus? I agree that many of them may be misplaced and others pure broker lingo I am unclear as to why nonsensical was used as the adjective to describe them. In other words these terms have meaning to those who use or misuse them.


09-19-06  MoneyBroker123: Bank Hard Copy (HARD COPY / REAL TERM) Bank Invoice (MISUSED TERM)
Bank/Corporate Pay Order (BOGUS)
Banking Co-ordinates (REAL TERM / BANK COORDINATES / ABA) Blocked Funds Letters (BOGUS TERM
CIF ASWP (CURRENT DISCUSSION)
Clean, Cleared Funds of Non-Criminal Origin Conditional Swift/Wire (BOGUS) Cutting House (BOGUS)
Exit Buyer (MISUSED TERM)
Fed approved (MISUSED TERM)
For value received, we, the undersigned officers of ….. Fresh Cut (BOGUS) ICC 3034/3039 Format (NO COMMENT)
ICC 600 (NO COMMENT)
ICC NCND (BOGUS)
Instruments free of liens and encumbrances International Banking Hours/Days (BOGUS) Irrevocable, Confirmable, Assignable, Divisible, Transferable KTT (MISUSED TERM) London Short Form (MISUSED TERM)
Master Cutter/Trader (BOGUS)
One Year and One Day (BOGUS)
Prime Bank (BOGUS)
Prime Bank Debentures, Guarantees or Notes Proof of Funds Letters (MISUSED TERMS) Roll Program (BOGUS)
Rolls and Extensions (BOGUS)
RWA Ready Willing and Able (MISUSED TERM) Seasoned (BOGUS)
Soft Probe (MISUSED TERM)
Subject to the laws of U.S.A., Switzerland, England and etc. Tier 1 Banks (BOGUS) Under Penalty of Perjury (MISUSED TERM) Window Time (MISUSED TERM)

Other misused terms:

Rich
Broker
Sucessful broker
Successful and rich broker
Mandate
In direct contact with mandate
On the buy side
On the sell side
BG on Euroclear
MTN settlement through DTC screen
Confidentiality and nondisclosure agreement FPA
and more...


09-19-06  Hardcase1: I happen to know that some of these listed terms are not "nonsensical". Even though Letcredit conferred with some of his colleagues prior to posting does not mean that other professionals in the field are not familiar with or do not use themselves some of the listed terms and terminologies.

09-19-06  rgexim: If U take a commodity like cement, an Ukrainean factory ships qty in several million MTs a year, and they have a highly competitive rate from the fleet owners. The shipping companies know the volume of business they get and hence give a ASWP quote. Manufaturers give a CIF ASWP quote, routinely to their sales outlets (mandates or whatever). In the cement circles, CIF ASWP is a common ocuurence, something which has evolved on account of trade practice.

It is NOT a nonsensical broker term, that is the point.

Ofcourse, if the buyer gives a precise destination, the CIF quote could be lower. However for destinations beyond a certain point, the rates are same.

This is true in several othe rcommodities like urea, sugar, cooper cathode, etc.U will see CIF ASWP quotes, as a common occurence.

Likewise, in currency exchange contracts, usage of the term "window time" is not an uncommon one.


09-18-06  sapphirecapital: I just wonder because I've not seen it, why would any serious buyer look for an offer which includes the highest shipping rate or why would a broker offer it. With the different quantities which can be handled in different ports and the different size ships allowed I personally would not do this, or what am I missing?

09-18-06  rgexim: Letcredit, thanx for exposing Ur ignorance to the members of the board. U can ask any decent trader in cement, urea, sugar, etc. aand he will tell U that CIF ASWP quote is NOT uncommon. If someone asks me for a CIF ASWP quote, instead of a named destination, I will add the maximum freight a shipper will charge, to the cost plus insurance. If letcredit wants, he can seek help of the members of the forum.They will confirm that I'm correct.

Anyway, I do not want to take away the credit for the excellent work of letcredit. I just wanted to point out an error inhis work.

Letcredit's article was an excellent one. His aim is that the members using the board should strive to become professionals, which I aprreciate. Keepup th egood work letcredit!!!!


09-18-06  sapphirecapital: Educator: Sorry to say in my sphere of work I've never seen a serious "soft offer", the commodity dealers I know either are very specific or quote it different. The term we talking about never made it to my desk, seems to be more like shouting: "I deliver it whereever you want it if you buy from me"

09-17-06  Educator: As I stated before, sellers will issue a quoted "soft" offer, That is where they will use ASWP, in the SOFT offer only. Then, when the buyer & seller communicate, the CIF (PORT) will be specified on the contract. ASWP is used on a SOFT OFFER QUOTE ONLY.

09-17-06  sapphirecapital: letcredit has a point, depending where the product is why should I as a buyer let the seller calculate any safe harbor, even if it is somewhere which is not even close, such a calculation would quote a higher price than necessary because it would not have the actual cost incorporated but a fictious harbor and in that business you just do not do it that way. Anyway, even if some feel that some of the terms which were quoted do make sense (the may have invented their own language in brokerage/thats how adjustments in language come to bear), the terms in itself are still nonsensical, but thats me

09-17-06  letcredit: For the benefit of rgexim, allow me to explain whey ASWP is nonsense. I double-checked with friends in Cargill and Toepfer before I put in the post. If you don't know who are Cargill and Toepfer then you know nothing about the commodity business.

First, ASWP supposedly stands for "Any Safe World Port". There is neither a list nor a definition of what is a "safe" world port. Safe from what? Hurricanes? Earthquakes? Rocks? Delays? Pilferage? War? Terrorists? There is an element of risk in every port in the world, however small, therefore every port in the world is unsafe. If a port is riskier than others, the insurance rates will reflect that.

CIF means cost, insurance and freight. It means the seller pays for the insurance and freight and adds them to his price and are included in the invoice to the buyer. We all know that.

Now, suppose Mr. Rgexim in India has 10,000 tons of something in his warehouse in Mumbai which cost him $80 per ton and he wants to sell it for $100 per ton and make a profit of $20 per ton.

He can quote $100/ton fob Mumbai. The buyer nominates a vessel, arranges his own insurance, pays the freight on arrival and the seller invoices the buyer $100/ton and makes $20/ton.

Suppose Mr. Rgexim gets enquiries from all over the world and they all want quotes of cif per ton. He cannot possibly quote CIF ASWP to all these enquiries from all over the world because freight rates are different to different ports. He cannot quote the same price CIF ASWP to any "safe world port".

Suppose he estimates insurance and freight to be $10/ton. Can he quote $110/ton CIF ASWP to anywhere in the world? No he can't, because the freight from Mumbai to say, Dubai, could be $5/ton and from Mumbai to New York could be $40 per ton. He can't possibly quote CIF ASWP and let the buyer choose which "safe world port" to ship to.

Therefore, CIF prices are always quoted with a named port following CIF and each quotation to a different port is different because the freight rates are different. The term CIF ASWP is simply not used in commodity trade.

I very much doubt that Mr. Rgexim is in the commodity business.


09-17-06  Allosaur: No. Some of those terms are in fact authentic. My parter holds a full seven SEC licenses and is very active in this market. We see many of these terms regularly and transact with same. If by non-sensical you mean illegitimate, this would not be altogether true. If that's the case, then I have substantial monies gained in agreements which incorporated (some) of those terms. (Did you get this list from one of those watchdog sites? Those sites mean well. They're trying to ward off inexperienced people from getting in over their heads. But nevertheless, the legal sites [SEC, FBI, etc.] are fully aware of what the derivative market did last year alone. (See Wall street Journal on "Derivative Market Returns" of '05.) Some of these terms are frequent to contracting in said market.

09-17-06  rgexim: Educator,
U R absolutely right abt CIF ASWP. CIF means Cost Insurance and Freight.CIF in isolation means nothing, the destination port has to be known. CIF New Jersey, CIF Chennai, etc. In international commodities trade like urea, cement, etc., the buyer may have to supply at more tahn one destination, so buyers ask for a quote from seller for CIF Any Safe Wrold Port. Letcredit does not have the guts to admit he is wrong, but continues to call it s Mickey Mouse Term. The Forum now knows who he is, so just dont bother abt him.Just keep on.

09-15-06  Sammy Davis: dear letcredit

please explain for all bachelors here: the ral verbiage for the bg,sblc
also advice the last edition of the icc:500,600,900 ?? bg has:isin,dtc,cusip ????
can you explain these important detaills

regards


09-14-06  letcredit: The reason some of the lines got jammed up was because I put in too many terms and you know there is a line limit for each post. But it should be clear where the jams are.

09-14-06  Educator: Sorry, I made a typo with reference to the word "and".

09-14-06  Educator: Well, it was kind of hard to distinguish as you ran some of the other lines together like this one: "Clean, Cleared Funds of Non-Criminal Origin Conditional Swift/Wire"

I actually hold a valid BG, the phrase is written: ".....we hereby certify with full bank responsibility abd authority that the credit and consideration of cash received by us for the issuance of this instrument constitutes good, clean, cleared funds that, to the best of our knowledge and due diligence, meets all current local and international anti money laundering and anti-terrorism laws as well as applicable banking rules currently in force."


09-14-06  Educator: I do know.
ASWP is not possible on the final contract, as the dock fees vary greatly from port to port, and the loading/unloading & storage capabilities of each port vary greatly. However, in some instances, I have had "soft" offers from direct sellers that will include this term. It will NOT show up on the final contract, as the final contract will contain the name of the destination port along with all of the finalized terms. I used to be in comoditties until about 3 years ago. I still may even have some of my old sellers & buyers information somewhere.

09-14-06  letcredit: Educator: Can you read my post again? It's CIF ASWP that's Mickey Mouse, not CIF alone. The offending term is ASWP, which does not exist. It does not exist in the commodity trade, insurance or shipping.

We all know what's CIF and Incoterms. They are all everyday terms used in import/export and every petty trader knows them.

There is no space here to explain why ASWP is a nonsensical brokers' term. I invite you to contact me offboard and I will explain in detail.


09-14-06  letcredit: Educator: It's ASWP that's Mickey Mouse, not CIF.

09-14-06  Educator: More details: Can you read "CIF?"

Incoterms or international commerce terms is a series of international sales terms that is widely used throughout the world, divides transaction costs and responsibilities between buyer and seller, reflects state of the art transportation practices and closely corresponds to the U.N. Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.

Incoterms deal with the questions related to the delivery of the products from the seller to the buyer. This includes the carriage of products, export and import clearance responsibilities, who pays for what, and who has risk for the condition of the products at different locations within the transport process. Incoterms are always used with a geographical location and do not deal with transfer of title.

They are devised and published by the International Chamber of Commerce (ICC). The English text is the original and official version of Incoterms 2000, which have been endorsed by the United Nations Commission on International Trade Law (UNCITRAL). Authorized translations into 31 languages are available from ICC national committees.

Group E - Departure:
EXW. Ex Works (named place)
Group F - Main Carriage Unpaid:
FCA. Free Carrier (named place)
FAS. Free Alongside Ship (named loading port) FOB. Free On Board (named loading port) Group C - Main Carriage Paid:
CFR. Cost and Freight (named destination port) CIF. Cost, Insurance and Freight (named destination port) CPT. Carriage Paid To (named destination port) CIP. Carriage and Insurance Paid to (named destination port) Group D - Arrival:
DAF. Delivered At Frontier (named place) DES. Delivered Ex Ship (named port) DEQ. Delivered Ex Quay (named port) DDU. Delivered Duty Unpaid (named destination place) DDP. Delivered Duty Paid (named destination place)


09-14-06  Educator: Cost, Insurance and Freight (CIF) is a common term in a sales contract that may be encountered in international trading when ocean transport is used.

When a price is quoted CIF, it means that the selling price includes the cost of the goods, the freight or transport costs and also the cost of marine insurance. CIF is an international commerce term (see Incoterm).

CIF is identical in most particulars with Cost and Freight (CFR), and the same comments apply, including its applicability only to conventional maritime transport. In addition to the CFR responsibilities, the seller under CIF must obtain in transferable form a marine insurance policy to cover the risks of transit with insurers of repute. The policy must cover the CIF price plus 10 per cent and where possible be in the currency of the contract. Note that only very basic cover is required equivalent to the Institute "C" clauses, and buyers should normally insist on an "all-risk" type of policy such as that under the Institute "A" clauses. The seller's responsibility for the goods ends when the goods have been delivered to the marine carrier or have been delivered on board the shipping vessel, depending upon the terms of the contract.

This term is only appropriate for conventional maritime transport, not ro/ro or international container movements.


09-14-06  letcredit: CIF ASWP is a Mickey Mouse brokers term. It does not exist in the commodities trade, insurance or shipping.

Bulk commodities are usually traded on the price basis of 1) FAS (Free Alongside Ship), 2) fob named port, 3) free out, 4) liner out and 5) cif named port.

Just call one of the big boys like Cargill, Toepfer, Glencore or Noble and ask them to quote you a shipload of anything.


09-14-06  DD Report: letcredit:

Good information. I will only add some feedback for "Soft Probe". This Term will be used frequently from Intermediaries for Buy/Sell of Communities as Sugar, Urea, Cement as others where the Seller Bank will check the Buyer Bank if there are enough Funds available for closing the Purchase Contract together with the famous 2% Performance Bond who activate the payment (Letter of Credit, Standby Letter) from Buyer.

DD Report


09-14-06  Educator: I found other errors here as well. Example:

On commodities contracts, CIF ASWP does in fact stand for Cost, Insurance & Freight, Any Safe World Port.


09-14-06  vastview: letcredit. Good posting. I agree with almost all of the terms you said. But if a client cannot show the history of the funds that the fund is clean, free from any lien or encumbrance and the funds were earned from non criminal origin then even a bank will refuse to deal with that client and give him/her service.

Before I get paid on a deal my bank has to be pre advised that where that fund is coming from and why by another banker who is sending that fund. This is applicable when a large amount of fund is involved.

Same way when I pay any broker my bank sends pre advise to the broker's bank about the origination of the funds. If this procedure is not followed then bank will freeze that account of suspicious activity. I am talking about AA rated bank with S & P. This lets the regulatory body of any country to monitor the bank accounts and prevent money laundering. Best regards. vastview@yahoo.com


09-14-06  GLD gold: letcredit: I'm fully support your statement, well done.

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